Lidia Infante is Head of SEO at SurveyMonkey. Lidia has over a decade of marketing experience and a strong focus on SEO and content strategy. She also LOVES data.

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In this episode we discuss one tip that can boost your career and finding a partner by applying marketing principles to dating


Lidia Infante

Lidia holds a BSc in Psychology and a Master’s in Digital Business, she has made her mark at companies such as, BigCommerce, and Rise At Seven.

Lidia is recognized as a leading voice in the SEO community. She is an exceptional SEO speaker, regularly featured at top-tier events such as MozCon, BrightonSEO, or WTSFest. She often writes about SEO trends and best practices for Moz, Search Engine Journal, and the Wix SEO Hub.

Strategy Sessions Host – Andi Jarvis

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Interview Transcription

This transcript has been done with a new tool, which I hated. Back to the old way next week.

 [00:00:00] I am gonna start with the same question. I start with everybody these days. What one thing do you wish you’d have known 10 years ago?

That it doesn’t matter how well you’re doing your job if you’re not being perceived as doing it well. So you need to put as much work in communicating to leadership as you do in knowing that actually your strategy is bang on.

Oh wow. Okay. Right. Let’s just unpack that a little. So not just that. So when you were 10 years ago, you thought. I just do a great job. Great things will happen. I do good things. People recognize it. You get promoted. I do good things. People recognize that you get promoted and that that’s the ladder that we’re on in work.

But what you’ve realized is that actually you have to manage upwards and let them know that you’re doing a good job as well, not just expect them to find that out.

Yeah, [00:01:00] but not just let them know that you’re doing a good job, but explain like they’re five um, why what you’re doing actually aligns with company objectives and don’t expect them to remember it Three minutes from now. Literally every presentation you give, every email, you send every public message, every all staff, um, meeting


you’re doing is aligned with company objectives. So if you’re creating content, I think as CEOs need to do so much work, um, and I, I am not sure that calling myself an SEO is exactly accurate. I feel like I go a little bit beyond that, but, We have such a bad reputation for focusing only on search volume, right? And traffic and not on metrics that actually matter to the [00:02:00] business. So countering that bad reputation that we start from every single interaction, um, have a clear measuring strategy in place State over and over and over again, why what you’re doing impacts revenue for the business.

One of the best bits of advice I was ever given, uh, for my job and my career actually came from someone who’s in a very different field. They’re a primary school teacher, and it was exactly this advice in a slightly different way, but it was exactly the same advice I was talking about how. Sometimes I run training sessions and people go away and every single thing I tell them just lands.

And other times I do it and I feel like the whole session is just wasted because people don’t quite get what’s going on. And I’m like, but it’s the same session I ran yesterday where everybody understood it. So is it me? Is it them? And, and what she said was basically, when [00:03:00] you teach primary school children, you have to tell them what you’re gonna teach them.

Teach them it, and then tell them afterwards what you’ve taught them. Otherwise it just doesn’t land, you know? So you’d say, right, we’re, we’re gonna learn today about the the Roman Empire. You then teach them the Roman Empire and then at the end of the session you say, we’ve just done the Roman Empire, and we looked at, uh, Julius Caesar, Hadrian’s wall and these things.

And then they go home and they’ll tell the parents, ’cause those three times have landed. If you don’t do that. It doesn’t stick. So I started to change some of my training sessions and when and when I ran a team and I was delivering feedback and things like that, and use that sort of approach over and over again.

Tell people what you’re gonna do. Do it, tell ’em you’ve done it. And it actually made a big difference to how my training set, like I track NPS of my training sessions and it now, I think it sits at 88 now, plus 88. But it, it went up. I could, I can actually see it going up from when I implemented that change.

You know, there’s one hack will change how you do [00:04:00] marketing. The one hack came from a school teacher, and it’s, I think it’s the same thing as what you’re saying, isn’t it? Just tell people what you’ve done, do it, and then tell ’em again that you’ve done it.

Yes. Um, and that makes sense in terms of like psychology, because you need a shortcut. You need to label the whole learning and be like, okay, I’ll put it in this mental package. I’m gonna put this label on it, and when the label comes in, I’m gonna retrieve the information.


Um, so yeah, that does make a lot of sense.

And if you think about it back in a work context from a, um, uh, from, from a school context, your manager or or their manager has a lot of things going on, right? You know, you depending on. Uh, you’re, you are about to start work as, uh, head of international SEO at SurveyMonkey, and I’m assuming that when you get there, that the person you report into will have more than you reporting into them.

They might have a team of, you know, if it’s a good organization, six people, [00:05:00] maybe if it’s a, a big, big busy organization, they might have 20 direct reports, plus they’re getting work passed down to them from their boss, plus they’ve got everything that’s going on at home in their life and all the different things happen.

That one thing you dropped in, in a casual conversation over coffee once that you, you believe resonated with them, didn’t even land so.

Yep. They were nodding along while they were thinking, I need a costume for my child over Christmas?

Yeah, and, and you know the phone, you know they’ve got an Apple watch. I don’t have one, but they’ve got an Apple watch vibrating on the wrist, give ’em a notification. They can feel that in their pocket or in their bag going off as well. They’re going, I’ve got this project I need to finish and here’s Lidia rattling on about something that I really don’t care.

Oh, she stopped talking shit. No. Brilliant. Perfect. Yeah. If you think that’s the right thing to do, you keep doing that. Mm-Hmm. Great. And off you go.




yeah. Um, so


be, people basically.

[00:06:00] yes. But what’s interesting, um, and because both you and I do a lot of public speaking and communication, um, this skillset taken to capture and retain attention is a separate skillset from being remembered, So if I wanna capture and retain attention, I’m telling you a story. it drives you like it takes you on an emotional journey. if I want you to remember what I taught you, I need to summarize it at the end of every point. Or I can, and, and this risks losing the, the attention at the beginning. I can lay out, this is what we’re gonna talk about. This is what you’re gonna learn, and then start the storytelling and then finish by, Just packaging it,


I give you a mental frame, then I tell you the thing, then I package it and I make you care because the story is good.

Now I and I, I, [00:07:00] I accept that entirely. So when, when I do public speaking, um, George from Wix laughs at me all the time because every presentation I give has a really simple structure to it, right? I start with a story which is often not about marketing often, and maybe like a historic thing. Then there’s a little turn at the end where you know, you go, why is Andi telling us a story about the history of beer?

And then he turns at the end and you’re like, oh, I get it right. And then I go on and tell you some stuff about marketing and usually try and wrap it up with a reference back to the story at the beginning. That simple. Um, and I do that because the story. Makes people lean forward. I wrote for JP Lin’s blog, um, strategy and Praxis link in the show notes, um, about, uh, I wrote a thing about storytelling and I started off talking about, um, growing up going to church and how I think pastors and vicars and priests are actually great storytellers because if you think of what religion is.

Here we are at Christmas time. Right. You’re, you’re asking people to believe in something they cannot [00:08:00] see and cannot feel. I’m not here to disparage religion, I’m just, religion is asking people to take a leap of faith. Right. And they

Quite literally.

literally a leap of faith and religion has endured and, and is followed by billions of people across the planet because of the storytelling ability, often of a person in front of them to communicate the, the, the aspects of that faith and the one thing they never tell you in church.

And I’m pretty sure in any religion is stats. You never hear anyone who’s religious giving a story going, and 73% of the Israelites followed here. Like, no. No one cares, right? Literally, people remember the stories, they remember the feelings. They don’t remember the percentages. They don’t, they do not. So you rarely get pers percentages in my, my presenting.

But when I’m doing training, very different because you have to let people know what they’re gonna learn. Take them through it, the structure’s different. Still tell some stories in it, but it’s all there. So, [00:09:00] yeah.

I, I run a training for Brighton,


in-house, SEO. Um, and I always use, I, I keep it updated, the survey for in-House, sorry, technical, SEO, state of technical, SEO, by air and Digital and


SEO. And you know, the survey follows a series of questions. So I like bringing in those stats so that the people coming into the training. Get a sense of validation of where they’re at, or a sense of appreciation of how much better they’re doing than than other people. And if they’re doing worse than the average,

Oh. Or the fact that we’re all in the same shit. Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. So what I do when I’m about to show the stats is I just show the question I ask them like, well, what’s your answer? I go around the room, I, I do it in really, really small groups. I really enjoy like the, the personal touch of it. And then I show the stats


we discuss the [00:10:00] feelings that the stats bring up, um, when compared to our answers.

Yeah, it’s.

way of

It’s a beautiful way of, of, um, hitting that emotional and rational triggers and when, when you do hit both of them in advertising world, that that’s one of the things they look for. I always talk about hair. Um, haircare products, shampoos and things like that, which is a bit of a laugh ’cause here I’m watching the video, you’ll see my Baldy head hid hidden by a Moscon hat.

But we’ll come back to that in a minute. In fact, side note, I don’t feel like I’ve ever looked more like a podcaster. I feel like some sort of US tech bro with a trucker hat, my earphones in and the microphone in shot. Like, Hey dude, here’s some hacks that will change a world. Um.

How I made a million dollars with ai,

with this one quick change in Just buy my course at 89 97. No. Anyway, move it. Um.

say, the hat’s too colorful for a podcaster, bro.

Is it? Sorry. Oh, dear.


I’m gonna, I’m still learning. I’m still learning. I’m still learning. Um, I, I, I’ve [00:11:00] completely forgotten the point I was gonna make. Oh, yeah. Shampoo. That’s where I was going. If, if you look at, at shampoo adverts, they, they’ve always got an emotional and irrational cues to them. So they’ll have some science.

It’ll be like, you know, Q 10 or scientific blurb will make your hair stronger. But then there’s always this emotive bit of somebody wafting their hair around. Now if you’re watching the video, you’ll see me. Trying to waft my imaginary hair around and Lidia’s doing it much better. Uh, you know, slow motion shots

hair, you know.

with, oh, stop showing.

No one likes to show off All it, um, you know, sort of wafting around and there’s an emotional bit to it as well. And that hitting the emotional and rational trigger is, is really important for making it land. So what you’re doing there with the stats is the same thing is, and, and that stat will land a lot better than just going 73% of in-House.

SEOs think that this is a problem. Nobody cares. Nobody caress.


Yeah. Um, so while we’re talking about emotional and rational problems. Let’s get onto why you’re here, right? So he, [00:12:00] here’s the thing. Um, when you’ve run a podcast for a number of years, um, you start to get pitches from people who want to come on podcasts.

And most of them are depressingly similar and dog shit. And they are often mostly by a podcast agency, uh, or, uh, someone who works for, for a person. It’s not that the podcast agencies are shit, it’s that it’s. Identical people use them. And it is almost always, um, uh, sort of white guys between the ages of sort of 35 and 45 who are paying, probably paying podcast agencies to, to get them on shows.

And it’s always the same pitch. It’s like, you know, insert generic name, uh, grew an agency from this to massive figure within so many years he now helps other agencies do this, or he now sells this, or he’s now written a book to help. And it’s just like, I just. Couldn’t have any of you on because she boring as hell.

In walks Lidia. Lidia sends me a message, says. Can I come on the podcast? I’ve got something interesting to talk about. I’m like, [00:13:00] hmm, what is it? That’s interesting. ’cause I don’t, like, I speak at a lot of SEO events and I don’t like covering SEO too much on this podcast ’cause it’s not an SEO podcast and everyone’s fed up of hearing me say that, but, uh, so I’m like, no, I’m just really wanna talk about SS EO.

So what is it you wanna talk about? And you were like, well, and not many things make me stop and go, oh wow. Okay, let’s do it. So with that introduction. Let, let’s unpack this a little, because it’s a world I genuinely know nothing about, but I’ve since started reading a few things about, so I, listen, I, I’m, I’m old.

Um, I, and I grew up before these things were invented and I’ve never used them and I’m married as well, so, you know, I’m never have any plans to use them. What, what are we talking about?

We’re talking about dating, we’re talking about dating apps, and acting like a complete crazy person with data and dating apps [00:14:00] because, and, um, I, I’m going to like go against our advice before, but like scientifically speaking, your choice of partner as a woman is the most impactful choice you’re ever going to make in your financial wellbeing and your happiness. Okay. Um, and it’s Christmas right now, right? Like we, we are recording this episode on Christmas, and I wanna everybody that the magic of Christmas is your mom. Um, when the people who know what you want for Christmas, the gifts, the decoration, the food, um, the stuff that makes it all magical and exciting is the care that women and the empathy that women put into the family now. This is not always true, and I hope it’s going to become less and less true as the years go by. I hope this statement ages terribly, if you are still listening to this podcast in two years, you think to [00:15:00] yourself, what’s going on about? That’s ridiculous. Um, but the truth of the matter right now that your choice of partner is the biggest impact in, um, your life and. Statistically speaking, women are more unhappy in a relationship than they are single, um, women who are single live longer. Um, is the opposite for men. Men are happier in relationships. Men live longer in relationships. Men make more money when they’re in relationships. Men do less housework when they’re in relationships. The opposite for women. Okay, so you could

So the question, question number one is why? Why do you wanna be in a relationship? You live longer? Be happy.

You know, um, why do women wanna be in relationships? What we’ve told to aspire, we’ve been told to aspire to mother all of our lives.



Just at this point, can you hold your mug up again please? Just for anyone who’s watching the video. [00:16:00] It’s a Taylor’s version mug. ab absolutely fuck the patriarchy. It feels like it’s very on brand for the rest of this conversation.

Exactly. All right, so, so I go. Not me, right? I’m not gonna be the one that lives less, is more unhappy, and does more housework hours. So how am I my patriarchal aspiration of wife and mother to turn it all around? Well, I have this annoying thing where I think I’m really smart, I decided to use marketing and science choose the best possible partner.


developed, ahead.

no, I, I, I can’t dec,

a hinge,

I can’t decide if I think this is genius or the most terrifying thing I’ve ever heard that you’ve applied your marketing and data love work

[00:17:00] yep.

to finding a partner. Not work. You’ve put these two things together and I also wonder what would’ve happened, um, if your job would’ve been, say, I dunno, maybe a painter, would you have still done the same thing?

Would you have painted different pictures to attract.

I was always gonna be a marketer. I think I was born like this. Um, okay. So dating and business have so many parallels. You can think of your dating profile or, or your dating persona as a product. Um, and the places in which you’re trying to fight partners. They’re going to be your distribution channels. Right. Um, then you need to think about the positioning of this product. and you could potentially think about the price of this product, which is not price, price, unless you’re in a very different business than me. but well, there’s a cost to taking you out, not just like, I don’t mean [00:18:00] I don’t.

There, there’s a time co


so there, there’s a time cost, isn’t there? I know some friends who’ve been on the apps, they don’t even call them day apps. Just say on the apps, talk about the, the level of time that they have to spend doing the admin that’s connected with it and then like I say, meeting people, going out on dates.

That’s the time commitment. It’s a cost commitment and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, there’s a cost to it.

Yeah. So what inspired this, this whole crazy that I’m going to unravel, um, in your podcast, sorry, Andi, um, was that Tinder released a feature where they would. AV test or multivariate test technically all of your pictures to figure out which picture to put on first to get you the most likes. Now, on Tinder, I had like a picture of me in front of the Marina Bay Sands in um, Singapore.

Beautiful thing. A picture of me with my cat, a picture of me in a bikini in the [00:19:00] Amalfi Coast. Do you wanna take a guess of which one got the most likes? I.

It’s gotta be the bikini one, right?                     

It was the bikini one. So the bikini one went first. I let, I let Tinder take the reins and the bikini picture went first and I got so many likes and matches and every single one of them was trash. They would open up with like DTF up, over gene emoji. kind of, that kind of vibe, you know,


it was so,

Now can we just, can we just pause here for a second? So there are, I know from the stats on Spotify that there are some, um, some, some people of a different generation listening to this podcast, um, including people like me in the forties who, as I said, never been on the apps and it, it’s a world I, I have to get my head around a little.

So just rolling back firstly. When, when I would’ve Ladd, if you wanted to meet someone, you had to go, you went, you met them at work, or you’d meet them in the pub, or you’d meet them in nightclubs. And this [00:20:00] whole kind of, you know, there’s a product price place and promotion element to it. It’s just, maybe it was always like that.

Maybe you bought them a drink. That was the price. Maybe the, the product was what you were wearing or the aftershave you had on. And maybe the dancing that you did was the promotion element. Maybe we just never looked at it in these terms before. Um.

It was, it was always like this, but now that it’s online, we can measure it.

So we, we could measure it. Okay. And, and the second thing you, you’re going to have to explain, eh, in terms that, that, that old people might understand. I’m pretty sure everybody knows what, what a man means if he sends a, an, uh, aubergine or an eggplant to our American listeners, uh, emoji to, to a lady on a dating app.

I think we can all work that out. But the, the process of using. An app, just very briefly, is you put a profile up then, then what happens? Just give us a very like 30, 62nd what? What the apps do basically give us that rundown.

So the two main ones, Bumble and Tinder. You upload your [00:21:00] profile on, you put a bio on there. Um, I wonder if anybody reads it. The data says no. We’ll get back to that. Um, and people swipe left or right


say whether or not they like you. Now, if they swipe left on, sorry, if they swipe right on you, if they like you and you express that you like them too, that becomes a match and you’ve got the option to initiate a conversation.

Right. Gotcha. So, uh, so you put the bi the bikini, you let Tinder put the bikini picture first. You get a lot more matches, and then you, you start, you can start a conversation, um, a messaging conversation, and they’re moving straight from, we’ve matched to, do you wanna go to bed with me? Basically?

Yes, exactly. And that’s a thing that happens online a lot more than it would happen in person, because when you’re meeting somebody through work, through friends, or in real life, um, there is a social, there’s an amount of accountability from

a social contract. You can’t just walk up to a woman in a bar and say, Hey, can we just leave and go [00:22:00] to bed? Now? You’d be like, what? You weirdo slap all perfectly well deserved, but digitally, remotely, you just get blocked.

Yeah. Or, or you play the numbers and maybe there’s another like, very horny person who’s gonna say yes. You know, I, I don’t know of anybody who’s ever replied yes to DTF, um, like a cold DTF on a dating app. Um. You,

Yeah, I’m sure. I’m sure it’s a thing. I’m sure it’s a thing. Yeah.

I, I’m sure if you play the numbers long enough, you know.

Right. But I don’t play the numbers. I’d rather play the quality and I’d rather I have two ways of. Optimizing my dating life, I can reduce the amount of investment that I put on it. So, um, streamline the time that I put on it and improve the, um, leads that are coming in. So invest a little bit in improving my profile, um, to attract the right personas, right,

So you are, you are optimizing your funnel [00:23:00] effectively,

Literally, literally at the time that I was like heavily dating. Um, and I, I was working for these SaaS company, um, and it was a very interesting product. It

a SaaS company or a Sass e company.

It was a very boring SaaS.

like, okay. Sorry.

extremely, you know, like I really love SaaS because of, of the measurement opportunity. But um, this specific one was, um, business messaging, so WhatsApp, API and SMS


all of that, right? Um, and the interesting thing is this can be used. For an enterprise use case, or a lot of people that were coming into our funnel were spam customers that were looking to do a two P. So, um, application to person messaging for scam purposes. so we were measuring as part of our sales pipeline, we had a very clear, um. Approach [00:24:00] based on Salesforce sales pipeline optimization approach. And we were using Salesforce. So we would have, um, MQL that would come through our digital efforts. Right.


plain leads that could be qualified. Um. With like marketing scoring and all of that stuff. And then those would be passed on to sales. Who would decide whether or not this lead was qualified. And then once it was passed on as qualified, um, the size of the opportunity would be assessed and you would have bronze, like important customer, silver. That’s nice. And you would have gold. I decided to apply these. Funnel optimization process to my dating life, A lead would be a match. So when I get a match, like I count a lead and I put that on a spreadsheet. Okay.

You used a spreadsheet for your.

of course, and I opt, I automated the spreadsheet. It made [00:25:00] graphs. It was fantastic. Um, I will find the screenshot of it if you wanna, um, share it as part of the show.




use it as part of the promo. We are definitely, if you don’t mind,

Yes. So I, I tested a bunch of things and I, I feel like this is gonna teach us a lot about human nature and about me

yeah. Above,

than you

I think more above. Lidia first and then you. Nature second. Carry on. Carry on. Carry.

All right, so we’ve got leads. Okay. The leads go into a spreadsheet as, as account, right? Daily leads, this many. Um, and then we’ve got qualified leads. So on, on the first conversation I’m like, do I wanna go on a date with you or not? Um.

From one conversation.

Well, how much time do you think I have and how much matches do you think I have?

I, I, I, I didn’t. Can you give us a sense of numbers? How many leads are we talking? Are we talking about like hundreds? Are we talking about dozens? Are we talking about single figures?

per day.

Oh, 20 per day.

Yeah, man, I used [00:26:00] to be very hot in 2019.


watching this video right now? You would not believe it. I was,

listen, I, I am not here, nor am I qualified to comment on your hotness. Um, all I’m gonna say is I, I listen, but 20 a day. Is this the, like, is this the reality of using dating apps? You’re getting in in a big city, I’m assuming like if you live out in the sticks, maybe you don’t get this, but in a big city in England, 20 a day in terms of matches, shit,

I was selective and I had a profile that would put people off. Um, like that would

what did it say? I use a spreadsheet to measure.

I know. No. Oh my God. Um, so, well we can get into it now. Like

Yeah. Yeah. Go. Keep going. Keep going. Sorry. Keep going.

the scale, right?


Um, 20 conversations a day, 20 new people to talk to every day. Um. On Bumble, which was my preferred option, the woman has [00:27:00] to open the conversation. So I had to think of a witty, funny, cute thing to say to every single of these 20 people.

Absolutely not. I went on, created a list of about 20 to 30 prompts of like first things that I could say, and then I scored them in two dimensions. So how intimate they are, how much of a, of an intimacy threat I’m going to be throwing to you and how much effort to respond there is to it. So if you imagine this, it goes into a matrix of like a

A a two by two. Yeah. Classic, classic, uh, strategy consultants two by two. We love a two by two. Yeah.

Yep. So we’ve got high intimacy, low effort, um, like, oh, wait to make a girl spoon, which is, by the way, what I told my husband on the first message that I sent him on the app. Um, and this is the type of, um. That would bring me the most qualified leads. Um, then we’ve [00:28:00] had the low effort, low intimacy. So like, would you rather have waffles or pancakes for breakfast? Um, and I would like, the answers would skyrocket, um, but that would not really like, improve my sales pipeline any way, shape or form. Then, um, low intimacy, high effort. What is your favorite James Bond? Um, very,


a lot of answers. Well, I meant like, what is your favorite Jane V actor? So would that be Daniel Craig for you? Because I am of the, like what’s his face? Um, the one before Daniel Craig.

Pierce Brosnan

I am from the Pierce bro era, so


like Daniel Craig, but

Pierce. So this, this is the third podcast I’ve recorded in a row where we’ve got into movie reviews, right? And, um, I got a lot of stick for saying Conair is one of my favorite films, but I stand by it. I said, what? I said, I don’t think Pierce Brosnan was as bad as everybody says he was. He was very much of his time.

Um, but if you [00:29:00] remember where James Bond was before Pierce Brosnan took over, they were talking about killing it. Because it had just lost its way a little bit. Timothy Dalton wasn’t great and there was all sorts, and it took a bit of a gap. He came back and he just made it fun. He was just a very fun, very, probably 10 years too late, but he brought a, you know, he was a very eighties bond in the, in the nineties, but he was fun with it and he was great.

And he is, but Daniel Craig kind of, I, I think he’s just like, a lot of people will look at the next bond and be like, ah, it’s just not the same.

I agree that like I was a little bit disappointed when it went from Pierce to Daniel Craig. But anyway, um, I. effort, low intimacy, nobody would reply to that. Okay. Um, and then high intimacy, high effort would actually reduce my mql. So something for like, what’s the last time you left out loud? Um, nobody,

10 seconds ago.

So, yes.


Um, so [00:30:00] my, my, the problems that worked best for my pipeline, um, was high intimacy, low effort. So wait to make a girl’s spoon. Uh, you’ve got a smile that’s like or I bet you hear this all the time, but you’ve got beautiful eyes. That kind of shit. They ate it up.



what you, you are, you’ve nailed human San Like you’re saying these things to me and I’m like, oh, thanks Lidia. I mean, look, I have got lovely eyes. You’re not even telling that to me. But I’m sat here going, oh, thanks.

So that’s how I manage such a large number of leads, right? By having some marketing automation to it and AV testing, multivariate testing actually, um, the responses like the, my messaging.

I genuinely think anyone over the, no, not anyone who’s never been on a dating app like me, like he’s probably sat here. So, so older people have probably sat there going, is this how life works these days? You know, I can imagine my mum listening to this, not that she ever listening to the podcast, but listening, [00:31:00] going, what happened to go into a dance?

But it’s, this is, this just doesn’t seem real to me, but this is real. This is, this actually happened. This is what you did.

I’m mean, the market’s gigantic,


to like sort yourself out and the stakes are fucking high. You know, like is my years of life, my

Happiness, your earning potential. Yeah. This is everything.

So yeah, so I’m investing in this, I. So we’ve got the leads. They become qualified, um, during the, the first conversation, right?

They become an MQL. and then we go on a date and in the, if the date goes well, um, I. They become an SQLA sales qualified lead. And if it doesn’t, they become unqualified. Bye-Bye. We don’t care. an SQL is a good date. And during an SQL as a, like a sales assessment assess opportunity assessment call, um, I decide whether they’re bronze here for a good time, not a long time. [00:32:00] Um, whether they’re silver, like okay, we can renew the contract a few times, maybe, um, or if they’re gold, which is. Husband potential. And then after each

I’ve got a question. Sorry.


category below bronze where you just went and you’re just like, absolutely fucking not. There must have been like a fourth category, but did you ever get anyone who came through MQL stage, you went on a date with them and went, oh, actually I probably shouldn’t have done that, and just, I’m never contacting them again.



So what, what was that category called?

million. A million times.

Alright. So,

Your mic is going super quiet. Sorry.

oh, right, sorry. Hold on. There you go. Is that any better? Yeah.


Cool. So

Um, so one time there was this guy who, he was, he was a PPC manager. Okay. So that should have been the first

red flag. Red flag.

yeah, red flag. Um, he was like Scandinavian or something, and he looked kind of hot and the banter was there. He was very funny. Um, [00:33:00] so we went on a date and when I, when I showed up to the date. There was no banter. He was not funny. He was a little uglier than his pics. But I didn’t mind that, that much. Like I’m sure I’m uglier than my pictures. Well, I know that for a fact ’cause my husband has told me. Um, and yeah, so this man, he was so weird that I’m convinced someone else was having this conversation on our behalf. Um, the date was going very poorly. I could not shake him off me. No matter what, like little strategies I was using, oh, I’m so tired. He’s like, oh, thinking of bed already. And I’m like, no, I just, I wanna exit. So I had this safe, safe place that, um, I would take all of my dates to, um, it’s a wine bar in Barcelona, amazing place. Um, and we, we have a class of wine and there was a back exit, you know, and because I would take all of my dates there, um, the owners and bartenders and everybody knew me there. [00:34:00] So this guy, he was so creepy that I stepped away from my drink to go to the bathroom. And then I, when I came back, he thought, I cannot trust myself to finish the drink ’cause I don’t know if he’s put something on it. Therefore, I’m gonna exit this date immediately. No niceness needed because I can absolutely fucking not like, deal with


So I went to the bartender and I said, Hey, what was his name? Daniel? I think. I was like, Hey Danny. Um, this guy. I’m really, he’s creeping me out. Can I exit through the staff door? Um, I’ll pay for our drinks now.

And he’s like, you don’t pay for anything. This man pays for it. Um, um, out the back and I’ll text you. Like to make sure that he’s still here while you’re going to your car. so we did that and that’s like the most extreme case because he could not take a hint. he would, he, like, could rest my, my knee.

And I was like, woo

Uh, so just to.

there were no signs coming from me that



just tell me that as, as a da dad of a, a teenage girl. Um, when you go on a date, do you, do you, like, do you have a, a friend who you check in with and you’re like, right, I’m going on a date to this place with this guy at this time, and I’ll check in with you by 10:00 PM and if I haven’t, you need to call, you know, do you have that sort of fallback in place?

not really. Um, I wish I did. I, I trusted my own. Ability to stay safe way


’cause experience showed that I was not that safe all the time. Um, sorry to tell you, but it’s brutal out there for

As fuck. I, I like I, this is blowing my mind. This genuinely so it, it’s terrifying.

It is terrifying. And, you know, sexual violence is so rampant, you would not


I, I’m reading a book right now by Kaitlin Moore called, what About the Men? and the book is going on about, we’re, we’re in an extreme tangent right now, but the book covers, um, why are [00:36:00] men afraid of false rape allegations? The, um, statistics behind false rape allegations and the statistics behind actual like rape. Um, in about 97% of all rape accusations are real rape reports to the


Um, they’re, well, not real, not like been sentenced.

Yeah. Not made up. Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

it’s not good. Um, but. You can prosecute if you believe somebody is falsely reporting you. and only like 2% of all rape reports to the police, um, turn out to be false reports. Um, it’s like judge certified false reports, but then only about seven, no, only about 30% get reported at all. and the odds of a woman who is evicting of rape, knowing they’re rapists are about 80 to 90%. So it’s not a guy that’s hiding in the bushes


jumps out at you.

It’s somebody that’s like crossing boundaries and [00:37:00] using your trust. And the social con contract that we mentioned earlier to actually. She don’t abuse you. Um, but, um, there’s a, there’s, there was a survey that many young men fear being some woman’s horror story without knowing that, that there are actually some women’s horror story. Um, so I guess the only thing we can do for good men who are actually scared about that is to maintain ongoing communication on consent. Throughout your relationships. but yeah, it is, it’s a fucked up world out there.

It is. It is. And and fuck depressingly. So as well, and, um. I, it’s, I didn didn’t think we’d get here when, when we started talking about, but I, I think it’s,


it, it’s a live part of, of going out and as you’re talking about going out on lots of dates with people who, let’s be honest, you [00:38:00] barely know you, you’ve not even had,


assumed that you didn’t go out on a date with someone until you’ve spent like three weeks messaging them and thought, okay, this guy seems kind of fun.

This is literally like someone sway. It’s very low intent. Swiped on a picture, little bit of banter from a couple of predetermined messages, bang you in a bar with someone.


I didn’t think it was this quick. So this is, uh, and, and again, the younger listeners are probably thinking, alright, granddad, you know, this is not how this works, but you know, this is, this moves much quicker than I thought it did.

Yeah. That, that’s why I needed to address it with a framework.


Um, all right, so now that the bummer is like out of the way, I would then like evaluate the opportunities as close one or close lost. ’cause sometimes I would think somebody was bronze and they would think I was spam.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Fine.

it wasn’t, it wasn’t that usual, but


Um, but then I started [00:39:00] thinking. I was having, so I, I made a gold opportunity, my North Star, right? Like, I was like, no, it’s husband o’ clock. Like we need to find somebody that’s nice and good and amazing and I wanna be very in love and also have a long life and a happy life and make lots of money. it’s husband o’clock.

Um, we optimizing, I was optimizing for gold opportunities. Um, while in the past I had been optimizing for silver, bronze. Um, so I realized something. There were people that were playing the game as well as me. they had optimized profiles, they were looking sexy, they had the right answers to all of my questions. They were like so smooth on the date. Um, and then they would never like call me back. So I thought, these red ocean. Audience, like this is a red ocean market, um, a red ocean market for the uninitiated in, um, crazy applications of [00:40:00] business principles to life is a market that where you’re competing for the same set of customers with a very large pool of like competitors.

I’ll put a, a link to the red and blue ocean strategies thing in the, in the show notes, so you can read, you might need to read it with maybe like three glasses of whiskey in to make the link between the article and Lidia’s dating. But yeah,

thing. Yes, it is an MBA kind of thing. Um, so I, I, I observed that this was a red ocean, uh,


So I decided how do I make this. Blue ocean market. Um, do I change my targeting? Do I change my, um, my product or my positioning or my distribution channels? Um, and I thought I’m gonna change my, my targeting and I’m going to look at these men who not taking good pictures, but are actually very good looking if you take a second look. Um, and they might be having a lot less matches than me. Uh, and so that’s how I started. [00:41:00] nerds.

So, so you’ve married a really handsome man who’s a shit photographer. That’s what you’ve done.

yeah, honestly, my husband’s hot as fuck. Um, I, I was, I keep getting pictures with like Google photos, memory of whatever. I’m like, how did I ever get that man? Um, he was like a scrawny nerd when I, when we first met, um, he’s a software developer, so when I read Software developer, I was like, yes. You are going into the sales pipeline. Um, and yet now he’s like freaking jacked. ’cause he goes to the gym five times a week. and makes like three times, three more. Three times more. Three, yeah. Anyway, a lot more money than when I met him, um, talk about. Investing, you know, Warren Buffet, it’s got nothing on me. anyway, blue Ocean strategy.

Blue Ocean strategy is when you start targeting customers in a space where they’re not being targeted by your competitors. So I start looking at these [00:42:00] nerds who are beautiful, uh, but don’t know it, and who are smart and funny and possibly kind. We’ll figure it out on the date. Um, so. I matched with my husband, marked him as a gold opportunity on the first date.

He was incredible and then I married him.

What was the


Given that everything moves quicker than I, I think you’re not gonna tell me you’re married him within like two months of the first date. Are you?

No, but it was kind of like pretty, pretty fast.


You know, I, I had, I had explored the market. I knew most of what was out there. I had a lot of information about what I liked and what I didn’t like. And when I met him I was like, holy shit. He’s exactly. I want. He was kind, he had lived abroad in India and like he was mega smart. Um, I’m very in love with my husband. I don’t know if that’s coming across. Um, but yeah, I

It feels like the decision making [00:43:00] metrics that being in love with him was about number six or seven. But then again, look,


keep saying millennials only buy things because of purpose, and that’s only ever about six or seven on the decision making tree, so maybe it’s not that much of a problem.

So I went on two more dates after meeting him, and I was so extremely bored on those dates compared to like being with him that I just shut the whole thing down. I was like, this is my goal opportunity. I deleted the spreadsheet. I then went back for it because, you know, for the laws, it’s a really good story. Um, but yeah, I, I know, I know within like three days.

Um, um, so you knew within three dates, but what was the time lapse between then and, you know, and look, you’re a modern woman. Did you propose to him give, you know, give us the end of the love story? So you were on three dates and then what?

we went on three dates and then on date four I was like, Hey, um, I’ve been going on dates with other people and I don’t wanna go on dates with other people [00:44:00] anymore. And he’s like, so I got you all for me? And I was like, yeah. like, oh my God, do you wanna be my girlfriend? And I was like, yeah. date four, we were official. Um, my parents about a month later. my parents made an absolute show of themselves. Um, they showed up a little tipsy because they were coming from a wedding. It was actually quite funny and nobody, like, they did not speak the same language. Um, then I moved to Sheffield for


to like go on to work for Rise at seven. was like, do you wanna move to Sheffield with me? This was four months into knowing each other. He’s like, are you crazy? Are you actually like insane? I’m not moving to UK with someone I’ve known for four months. And I was like, yeah, fair enough. Well do you wanna move in for a month and help me out with like settling into the uk? So he did. We really enjoyed these practice living together. Run. He moved back to Spain where he lived at the time, and we thought we were gonna [00:45:00] be able to do like a long distance thing where we would visit each other every two weeks or so, and the pandemic, the second wave so we weren’t able to see each other for two months. We realized that we just wanted to be together, so he moved with me in. June that year, so about a year after we had met, we moved in together and a year later, less than a year later, we were engaged and about two years and a half into our relationship we were married.

Second Taylor Swift reference of the day. It’s a love story baby. Just say.

Maybe just say yes.

There we go. Well, I mean, let, I’m just gonna move on quickly, right? Just, just very quickly, if you take this approach to your dating life, right? What are you like at work? You must fucking love a [00:46:00] spreadsheet, right? You must like wake up in a morning dreaming of are you excel or are you, are you, uh, Google Sheets?

Google Sheets.

Sheets, you must wake up in the morning dreaming of Google Sheets. Go, ah, I’m get to play with Google Sheets again today and all of the data.

I am more of a CRM lady. I’m like, Ooh, what is the sales pipeline looking like? We are bringing more revenue, um, size matters when it comes to revenue. So yeah,

Listen, right. I, anyone who knows me know I knows I love a Willy joke, but I tend not to make them on the podcast. This is my episode 60.

brought up Willies. I, I’ve been talking about pipeline. Um, there were so many puns to be made.

This is like episode 60 something or other of the show. And yeah, probably the first Willie joke ever. But look, I’m here for it. I am here for, it. Might even bring you back. And Lidia does Willie jokes every month or something like that. Um. Um, listen, [00:47:00] we, we are running outta time. We, we genuinely running outta time.

Um, I usually at this stage ask people for a book recommendation, something that kind of influenced their thinking. I’m now not sure whether it should be, you know, is this gonna be Romeo and Juliet or is it gonna be some sort of data science book? I’m not sure. Or maybe you could write like the data science of,

writing this into a book.

of course you should be writing a notebook.


started writing the Tinder MBA with all of the. Principles and parallels between dating and um,


we were talking earlier that the best way to learn is to feel something.


so there’s a lot of dating prin, uh, per business principles. So we learn from the dating world and the dating world is a lot more interesting than the business world. So,

So is the Tinder NBA gonna be a dating book? That uses business principles to score and match, or a business book that explains business through the lens of dating apps

A business [00:48:00] book.

business book. Okay, cool.


I mean, listen, one of the reasons I started this podcast, I work on my own most of the time and I love learning.

I’ve got a post grad and a, uh, the, the marketing week MBA and I’ll keep going on, keep going on. But when you’re not in a team, you lose those learning opportunities from other people. So one of the reasons I started this podcast was to learn new stuff and to tap the brains of really smart people. I never thought it would take me down here to, to learning like dating apps and weirdos with spreadsheets about who.

Have a, a spreadsheet and MQL and SQL approach to, to their love life. But look, I mean, it, it worked for you and who am I to be a critic if it works right? Um,

did. But, um, talking about book recommendations, there is one that I would make that really changed my career that would be never split the difference, which is a negotiating book.


Um, if you are freelancing or like [00:49:00] in any level of consultancy or even when you’re doing in housework, um. Managing upwards. This book really helps

Interesting, interesting. Uh, again, as I’ve said a dozen times today, link in the show notes. Um, the show notes are gonna be wild in this one. I think, you know, links to Tinder, Bumble, uh, red and Blue Ocean Strategies, strategy and Practice by JP Kalin.

just to prove that I was hot in

I, I’m not, I’m not comfortable as a 44 year, 43-year-old man, but I’ll be 44 when this comes out about putting bikini pics of someone in my podcast.

Like even though you it, it’s part of the thing. I think not everyone would listen because my funnel is people see it and not listen to it before they move through that and people would just go. Who is this prick and why has he done that so we’ll,


yeah. We’ll, we’ll put your LinkedIn details. And what do you, are you just LinkedIn, have you given up on Twitter yet or where are you?

no, not yet. Um, so you can find me on Twitter at Lady Infant m.

[00:50:00] Mm-Hmm.

and sometimes I still tweet stuff.

Well, we’ll put your details for Twitter and LinkedIn in the show notes and no, actually don’t get in touch with Lidia and ask for the bikini pick ’cause that’d just be even more weird. Um, but you know, just get in touch with Lidia because she’s, ASIN loves a spreadsheet. Yeah. I don’t know, I feel like I’ve gotten to very, I’ve gone from very solid ground of learning onto, this is just getting a little bit weird.

So let’s, uh, Lidia. Thank you very much for your time. Um, you should, by the time people are listening to this, have started your new role as head of international SCO for SurveyMonkey. Congratulations. I hope you crush it. I’m dressed like a podcaster, so yeah, crush it man. Um, I hope it goes well for you.

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

Thank you for coming on. Cheers, Lidia. Bye.