Rachel runs marketing at Equitas and her own fashion brand, Ivy Haven. We explore the similarities and differences!
This is the final episode in the 2024 Black History Month mini series.
Listen on Spotify, Apple or YouTube.
In this episode we discuss:
- Setting the ambition for a DEI in NI event
- Celebrating small wins
- SaaS marketing for a start up
- Positioning the right message to the right customer
- Talking to customers
- Not copying your competitors
- Similarities between running a B2C fashion brand and marketing a B2B SaaS brand
Rachel Okungbowa
Rachel is a passionate multifaceted marketing manager at Equitas, an interview software designed for inclusive hiring, and Co Founder of a fashion accessories business based in Belfast called Ivy Haven, which is a brand that focuses on quality, style and community.
Her creative approach to marketing and strategies have delivered measurable results for Equitas and helped Ivy Haven grow. She’s also a DEI advocate and I’m on a journey to inspire people to not only have more conversations around this topic but to be part of the change.
Find Rachel on LinkedIn
Recommendations
- Book of Light by Nia the Light
- Black Create Connect Platform and community
- Black Recruiters Network
Strategy Sessions Host – Andi Jarvis
If you have any questions or want to talk about anything that was discussed in the show, the best place to get me is on LinkedIn or Instagram.
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Episode Transcription
This transcript has been done automagically using Happy Scribe and hasn’t been checked by a real person, so there may be some hilarious mistakes where the AI can’t work out our accents – I’m sure they’re trained on just the American accent.
[00:00:01.810] – Andi J
Rachel Okungbowa. What one thing do you wish it have known five years ago?
[00:00:08.500] – Rachel O
Do you know what? That’s a great question. And I think it’s the importance of celebrating small wins just as much as big wins. Because I think once we get into this big idea of that, Oh, we’ve got a massive win. Then, yeah, that’s what you celebrate. But I think it’s also important to reflect on what you’ve achieved so far. This year has been a big year for me, and I think it’s important to actually just take time, reflect on what’s happened, what you’ve done? Especially in a team, especially in a small team, and you think to yourself, Oh, okay, we’ve actually just gone through so much as a team. We’ve grown together. There’s different things that we’ve achieved. It’s really just being able to appreciate that journey as well. Small wins are just as important as big wins. I think when we focus so much on the big things, we think, Okay, right, we’ve done this. On to the next big thing. We neglect the journey a little bit because the small wins are also part of the journey and it’s important to reflect and say, You know what? Take a step back. We actually achieved this.
[00:01:05.090] – Rachel O
We actually did this. Just being able to take it all in because it’s a massive part of your journey, especially when you’re growing up a team and you’re trying to bring them onto the journey. I think the important thing is that we actually just appreciate all the wins. All the wins are the same. No matter how big or small, we should always appreciate the wins. Another thing that ties into that was being able I think we need to get better at understanding ourselves in our own journey as well, that constant learning process. When I think back to… I’ve been in Equitas for four and a half years, nearly five years. I think to myself, the content I produce in year one, compared to the content I’ve produced in year four, completely different. I used to think my year one content, Oh, that is an epic piece of content. Now I look back and I was like, Oh, my God, how did I post that? But now it’s a growth. It’s an era of me. It’s shown how much I’ve grown in my career. I’m so, so grateful for the opportunity. If I didn’t have that opportunity to just sit back, reflect and think of how far I’ve come and how I’ve gradually gotten better at what I do, then all of that would just be lost and all of that would just have just been just like, fated into nothing.
[00:02:19.270] – Rachel O
But yeah, so I think it’s the importance of celebrating all wins and being able to just appreciate in the journey.
[00:02:26.610] – Andi J
I think the thing about celebrating the wins, as you put it there, is that also it starts to snowball. If you only wait to celebrate the big win, sometimes they can be few and far between. There can be problems, there can be things that are out of your control, that mean they don’t happen. But when you celebrate the little ones, you start to build that consistency, that belief in excellence. And I don’t believe in celebrating mediocrity. I actually have a real problem with that, and I think we do too much of that. But that’s different to celebrating small wins. And if you celebrate the small ones, you start You start to build the consistency, start to look for them, you start to build and build and build. And you find, weirdly, that the big ones come along quicker as well. There’s a great phrase in Gaelic football and GAA, which I played for a couple of seasons. I was terrible, but I played GAA for a couple of seasons. And the phrase is, take the points, the goals will come. Something like that anyway. So you always go for the one point over the top all the time.
[00:03:23.770] – Andi J
Stop trying to chase the three point goal. Go for the one point, go for the one point. And what happens when you do that, you find that the gaps open up more and you score more of the goals. And I think that really it’s the same thing. You keep going for the one point, keep getting a consistency, and you fly from there. So it’s a really good point, really strong place to start. Hey up, and welcome to the Strategy Sessions. My name is Andy Jarvis. I’m the host of the show and the strategy director at Eximo Marketing. Thank you for coming along. That was Rachel. I just did the intro with there. And she’ll be back in a minute where we’re going to dive into her job or two jobs, really, with Equitas and with her own fashion brand. Before we do that, I just want to pause because this is the last episode in the Black History Month mini-series. Not the last episode ever, just in the BHM mini-series. The first episode was Miracle from John Lewis, who works in the finance team. The second episode was a live podcast at Ulster Bank, which featured Charmaine and David, where we talked about startup world, and we talked about David’s work building and growing a social media agency.
[00:04:23.100] – Andi J
And last week was Blessing, who works for Ulster Bank and Nat West Group, helping entrepreneurs grow. We found out a little bit about the challenges facing ethnic minority entrepreneurs. I really enjoyed this series, and I think what happens in the BHM mini-series is we take conversations in slightly different areas. We get maybe a little bit more personal. I know some people might not like that as much, but I think what you find when you have these conversations is that how we are as individuals affects how we approach work, what matters to us, what doesn’t matter to us. All of these things become the texture of who we are and help inform us when we work. So I think it’s to have those discussions. I’ve really enjoyed it. So that’s been half of the battle. I’ve had a great time. Also, as part of Black History Month, I worked with North Star. Kwame Daniels was the creative director behind this. And what he did is he worked on a creative response to a phrase used by Frederick Douglass. Frederick Douglass was a slavery abolitionist who visited Belfast in 1845, and he left saying these words, wherever else I feel myself to be a stranger, I will remember I have a home in Belfast.
[00:05:33.530] – Andi J
And what Kwame did was give that brief to a number of different artists, to people like Nandi Jola, a spoken word artist, to Leo Mayaghi, to Winnie Ama, to Jennifer John, and Hannah Peel. And what they did was create their response to that quote, What does Belfast mean to them? What does home mean to them? But he weaved it all together with local schoolchildren who responded to that as well. I went to this performance. It was only two nights in Belfast. I went on Friday night and it was incredible. It was superb. In fact, it was almost life-changing, if that doesn’t sound like too big a statement to make. It really had an impact on me. There’s been a lot going on in the summer, which has an impact on black people and ethnic minorities, on everybody, really. But it stays and it lingers in your mind. And sometimes that could make you feel like there’s no optimism and there’s problems in the country that are never going to be solved. Leaving Having an event like North Star the other night, you feel that there’s hope and that there’s a future. And like Kwame said at that event, you said this has to be the start of having a conversation.
[00:06:39.200] – Andi J
It has to be the start of what we’re going to do. It has to be the start now on what work is going to be done. Because everything always looks perfect in hindsight. It always looks like the thing that happened was supposed to happen in hindsight. But it’s not like that. It only looks like that because people put the work in to make it happen. So at the end of Black History Month in a couple of days’ time, this episode comes out on Tuesday, let me find the date, Tuesday the 29th. So on Thursday the 31st, also known as Halloween, I’m going to publish a blog and it’s picking up on what Kwame said, what next, not next year. Black History Month, the end of it has to be the beginning of something else. It can’t just be, let’s wait until it comes around next year and then pick this up. So that’s my question to you. What are you going to do next? It’s my question to me, what am I going to do next? We can’t just wait until next year. So that’s the question I’m posing to you. And I love you to get in touch with me.
[00:07:31.850] – Andi J
My details are in the show notes. Tell me what you’re going to do next. If you don’t know what you’re going to do next, tell me what challenges you have, what’s stopping you from doing something next. Let’s talk about it. When people meet, when ideas collide, when worlds come together, that’s when greatness happens. So if you’re not sure what you want to do next, get in touch. We might find this something to do together. Right. Thank you for that. Thank you for listening to me take a moment just to say what I think we should be doing, to say that this cannot the end. It can’t be a full stop. Well, it can be a full stop, but a full stop, that’s the end of a sentence. That means there’s a new one coming. So let’s focus on that. Now, let’s get back to the podcast episode. This episode five of Season 5 is Rachel O’Kunboa, and I only met Rachel recently, and this is great. Have a listen to Rachel, and then in two weeks time, we’ll be back with the next episode, episode 6. I think we got the love doctor for you.
[00:08:25.460] – Andi J
That’s a good one. I’ll see you then. Rachel, thank you for joining me on the strategy sessions. Pleasure to have you on.
[00:08:32.870] – Rachel O
Amazing. Thank you so much, Annie, for inviting me. It’s great to be here.
[00:08:36.850] – Andi J
But look, let’s dive straight into this. Let’s find a little bit more about you because you mentioned in the beginning, you’ve been at Equitas for a number of years, but you’ve also got a few more strings to your bow as well. So give us that two-minute view of your career to get us started.
[00:08:52.960] – Rachel O
Oh, wow. Where did I even start? So I’m actually a marketing graduate. So I graduated my master’s in Ulster University, which is great. I think that’s like, well, it was during lockdown. I started my university and it was going great. Just came back from a trip from Munich, a little team trip away. Then suddenly we’re all in lockdown and I was like, Okay, half of my course just had to become online. It was such a weird experience because I also managed to get a job, the job I’m in now in Necrotasks at the same time. I was working for a company. I I was doing my master’s, and I was at home. So everything just merged into one. But it was a real learning opportunity for me because I realised the importance of managing your time, I realised the importance of being organised and trying to set those boundaries. So Marketing Manager at Equitas for nearly five years in, next year, March, will be my five-year anniversary, which is just an epic milestone. But I also run a fashion accessory business with my sister called Ivy Haven. We actually launched it in lockdown, and we thought to ourselves, while everyone was doing all these, bringing up all these clothing businesses, we thought we’ve identified a market where, or a gap in the market where we wanted to create more affordable but quality fashion accessories.
[00:10:19.740] – Rachel O
So like, beanies, bucket hats, headbands. So it’s like little accessories that just make up the outfit. And of course, I’m very big in fashion. My mum, she She was a model and she was into fashion. So we just… My siblings just took after her in a sense. And then obviously my sister, she’s a fashion graduate. And then with myself being a marketer, those two make a perfect team.Much.
[00:10:43.520] – Andi J
Made in heaven.Exactly, right?
[00:10:46.680] – Rachel O
But yeah, we started that. It’s been going strong, totally learning new different experiences of what it means to create a fashion business, but not only just the fashion side of it, we’re also trying to create a community where it’s We’re trying to understand feedback, what people want to see more of, and just being able to create something that’s authentic, really, because it’s something that’s quite close to our heart as well. But yeah, it’s a little bit about me.
[00:11:12.110] – Andi J
Excellent. So we’re going to unpack each of those a little Love it. Let’s start with Equitas. Is it fair to call it a SaaS recruitment platform? Is that a reasonable description of it?
[00:11:24.240] – Rachel O
Basically, it’s an interview intelligence platform. So what we do is that we capture data for the audio recording and transcription. We could be having an interview right now and it’ll be recorded. Then what hiring managers can do is use that data to make more fair and objective hiring decisions because the data is there. We want to encourage people to use the data to make fair decisions on who’s the best candidate for the role rather than letting buyers influence hiring decisions. Because at the end of the day, we want to give all candidates a fair opportunity to get the best sales forward for the job. You can’t really do that when you’re not capturing data or where you’re not having a structured process or we’re not being consistent in the materials that you’re using to interview the candidates, really. It just becomes a whole mess. We’re trying to make interviews simple, we’re trying to make it more fair, we’re trying to make it more inclusive. Ultimately, we just want to make sure everyone has a great opportunity because interviews are hard enough as yourself. It’s a stressful experience for both sides. Hire managers are doing thousands of interviews.
[00:12:23.570] – Rachel O
Candidates are trying to figure out what’s the next role. Some people may be great at a job or really bad at interviewing. And it’s being able to take that out of the context and being able to deliver fair, engaged interviews so that everyone feels comfortable in that process. And ultimately, the right candidate for the role gets hired.
[00:12:43.430] – Andi J
Excellent. So there’s the sales pitch, but this is a marketing podcast, so let’s drill in a bit deeper behind that. So what things do you focus on? Because in that world, you’re often trying to ride two horses. You’ve got to get new customers in. You’re trying to retain customers. Does that all sit within marketing within Equitas, or do you have a separate customer success team? How are you set up and how does marketing work there?
[00:13:09.620] – Rachel O
Well, for me, I’ve been running it solo for the past four and a half years, and I think my marketing strategies have been very experimental. So it’s figuring what works in terms of the strategy. So we’ve tried various different things. So obviously, I’m strong on LinkedIn, and I tried to incorporate a bit of I think we experimented a bit of a podcast earlier, like Access Insights, which was- Don’t do podcasts.
[00:13:36.810] – Andi J
The podcast’s host are always ourselves. The software is terrible. Don’t do that. Stay away from podcasts.
[00:13:42.980] – Rachel O
It was a tough one to pitch out, to be fair. But the insights from it was really good because I got to talk to a lot of different thought leaders in the space, and it was just good being able to hear what they had to say on different HR topics. But apart, taking that aside, I think one of the key things that’s been really good for us is events as well, getting ourselves out there, which I’m going to talk about one of the key events I just did as well, which is epic. I think events is also a really good way to get your name out there and being able to reach people in a more face-to-face context, because one thing I’ve realised is that ever since past COVID, people want to get out and meet people and trying to build that community, nurture that community as well, because we’re still a small startup. I think when you’re When you’re in the mix of the big giants in the marketing world, it’s hard. With limited budget as well, it’s hard to get ahead of them. So you have to be creative. You have to get yourselves out there and try to…
[00:14:42.900] – Rachel O
Not just get yourself out there in the wrong context. I think you need to be selective in the event. Things like IHR conferences, which is focused on recruitment technology, those things, puts us in the focus of, Okay, if people are looking for interview software, we’re here. This You come and talk to us. We come talk to you. This is where you can actually pitch yourselves out. Then one thing that’s also quite well is webinars. We had a series of webinars this year, which I think we posted about maybe 10 webinars this year, which is just epic because people understood our style with webinars. For an example, we did inclusive interview training. Obviously, I know we offer our interview software, but one thing that we realised is that hiring managers also need that training aspect to balance up. Obviously, we put ourselves out there as an expert in interviews, but we also realise there’s DEI experts who also have some insights to share. We just bring them on a panel and like, Right, so inclusive interview training, just give us some insights. What can we do? What’s the best practises? What have you seen work? What have you seen that doesn’t work?
[00:15:47.940] – Rachel O
And just share that out to people and build that credibility. So webinars have worked quite great for us, I think. So yeah, this year has been very webinar-focused, I reckon.
[00:15:58.640] – Andi J
Who’s your ideal customer? And I hate in the tech world, they often talk about, Who’s your ICP? My whole thing about marketing is, there’s too many people trying to complicate it. Let’s try and keep it simple. So you’ll never hear me use the letters ICP. Who do you sell to? What types of customers? Who in that company? Is it the hiring team who are buying it? Is it the IT team? What’s that world look like for you?
[00:16:23.880] – Rachel O
I would say, well, to be fair, if we look in a bigger context, we’re very big in healthcare. In the Republic of Ireland, the HSC would be our biggest clients. I think within that, it would be mostly hiring managers who would usually use our interview software because they would be doing the ins and outs of hiring, they’ll be doing the interviews. They would be like, that’s the first touch point for them. People who you probably would consider in the decision process would be, obviously, the people who hold them money.
[00:16:59.920] – Andi J
Golden rules. Whoever has the gold makes the rules. That’s it.
[00:17:03.680] – Rachel O
Exactly. Of course, I think there’s the people who also understand more about the tech side of things. People who understand, Okay, this amount of budget we have, but also what tech do we actually need that can help assist our needs? Where’s the gap in the hiring process? Is it that they actually need someone that’s going to make them save more time? Is it something that they need that’s going to make them create more fair and unbiased hiring decisions? It’s trying to figure out what it is that they need in that present time and what’s going to be the return on investment. Hiring managers would be a main point of people who would use our interview software. But then there’s people who sit in head of DEI or people who sit in Even the tech space that may need to understand why our tech is really needed. There’s a training aspect of it. It’s training the team in the wider context. You have the training aspect and then you have the technology aspect, and the two and two have to go together. You You can’t just… Everyone’s like, Oh, here’s a new shiny tech product. You can’t just be like, Oh, we need this.
[00:18:05.110] – Rachel O
We need this in our tech stack. But realistically, you got to figure out what’s actually needed for your company, what’s the need, and for us to deliver on that need. So yeah, I think it’s training and tech needed together.
[00:18:19.110] – Andi J
Sometimes as well, and I know we’ll talk a little bit more about DEI later on in the interview, but one of the problems sometimes in selling a solution that makes things more fair for example, is that people fundamentally don’t believe they’re being unfair. That’s the challenge with unconscious bias is it’s unconscious. People don’t realise they’re doing it. So if you’re leading sometimes on, we will help you make fairer recruitment decisions. We can help you take out the bias out of your interview process. You’re almost challenging the person to say, you have a problem and we’ll help you fix it. But 80 % of them are like, I don’t have a problem. I’m not biassed. I just pick the best people for the I know. The DEI team know that. But the person who’s doing the hiring, especially out of the HR team, if you’re just a tech specialist looking for someone to come into your team, I don’t have a problem. The fact that we just have 25 white guys all the same age in the team is just because we hired the best people for the role.
[00:19:16.380] – Rachel O
Is it?
[00:19:18.800] – Andi J
Are you sure?
[00:19:19.070] – Rachel O
Is it really, girl?
[00:19:20.130] – Andi J
The problem with unconscious bias is it’s unconscious. A lot of people don’t know they have it. Is that a challenge you have to get around or is that more of a line you use when you’re talking to DEI teams and hiring managers who appreciate that issue, is there?
[00:19:35.940] – Rachel O
Yeah, no, you’re totally right. I think, do you know what? I feel like it is a harder way to pitch the interview software when we come at it from a fair perspective, which is why we also add in the efficiency side of things, just to balance it up in the sense that the things we’ve realised when we talk to our customers and in the wider context of potential customers, is that they want things that’s going to make them do their job a lot quicker in a short space of time. They want to do more with less. They want to be more productive. They want to be more efficient. How can they save money? How can they save time? We position ourselves as that as well. We’re trying to make sure they hire the best candidate in the half the time they need to hire. Do you know what I mean? It’s like if they have such and such amount of hours that are usually hired candidates, we want to try and cut that down by half. We want to help them streamline the process to make sure it’s not as tedious, cutting down a bit of that admin-related work, making sure it’s all…
[00:20:33.300] – Rachel O
And especially with healthcare where compliance is so crucial, we have that GPDR compliance and being able to have everything in a secure database. That’s what’s also quite important to some of our clients. When it comes to the fairness, it’s trying to help them understand that with the data capture is holding the hiring team accountable, that there is data that you can use to make the fair decisions, to be able to say, We have actually hired the right person for the role. It’s not about having a little diversity, diversity, inclusion, little tick box. Okay, we hired this person, we hired that person. We’re building our diverse team. We’ve done it. No, it’s not like that.
[00:21:11.870] – Andi J
Diversity is solved, tick.
[00:21:13.690] – Rachel O
We’ve We’re sorted. Here’s our certificate. No, it’s not like that at all. It’s being able to understand. If you know you want to make sure that your process is fair, it’s being able to build that structure and consistency from the start, being able to have that data that you’re capturing so you have to you have something to evaluate candidates on. Because if you don’t have that data, then you’re really just using… You’re going in your gut feel. You’re saying, I’ve hired this person because I think they’ll be a great person for the team. But why is that? Why did you hire that candidate over that candidate? Can you justify your reason? Can you just Would you just say that, Yeah, I just had a better connexion with that candidate? You can’t do that because you may be missing out on the best person for the role. So it’s like unspoken language where it’s like, You’re going to do It’s the right thing because you’ve got the data in front of you. Use the data. You don’t just get data for nothing. Use the data to make decisions.
[00:22:06.140] – Andi J
You used my favourite words in that answer as well. You said, When we talk to our customers, and this will go on my gravestone when I die, it’ll say, Talk to your customers. How do you do that? How do you bring the voice of your customers, and as you said, potential customers. How do you bring all that into the room and into what you do as a marketer?
[00:22:23.400] – Rachel O
Oh, as a marketer, this is what I love. I love to ask for feedback. We cultivate that in our team as well. Obviously, our customer success manager will do regular feedback calls and see, How are you liking our software? Is there anything that we can do to improve? What is it that… Is there any other needs that we may not have thought about? What is it that you want us to… What can help make your jobs easier? Do you know what I mean? We constantly have these feedback calls just to see where everyone’s at because as we know, things change so quickly and we have to adapt to certain situations. Obviously, we went through the recruitment freeze and stuff, and that was quite tough for a lot of companies. I think it’s It’s important to understand where we’re at now may not be where we’ll be in the next few months. So it’s being able to keep, cultivate that feedback loop and being able to say, Are you still happy with this? Do we need to adapt our product in a way that can help benefit our clients and maybe benefit another market. Do you know what I mean?
[00:23:19.770] – Rachel O
Sometimes I will look at our competitors and I think, Oh, we’ve got this feature. Do we need to do that? But then I think to myself, that’s probably something that they’ve just thought, Oh, let’s just do it anyway. Or who knows? Maybe they’ve talked to their customers and maybe that’s something that they want. But I think it’s important for us to understand that we don’t want to cultivate a pattern of just like, Oh, let’s just bring up this. Let’s bring up this. We want to actually bring out stuff or adapt a product in a way that would benefit our customers and benefit potential audiences. And that’s why I just always ask for feedback.
[00:23:47.720] – Andi J
I’ve always been really intrigued about this idea of companies who follow their competitors. They see them bring out a feature. And it’s prevalent in the tech world, but it is everywhere. I’ve worked in construction companies who do the same thing. They’ll see their competitor do something and will then jump in and go, We’ve got to do this. We’ve got to release this, too. If you think about that approach, if you do that, all you will ever be is a slow, second-grade version of your competitor. And when you talk to the senior team, you’re like, What do you aspire to do for this business? We want to be the number one in the market. We want to be the world’s best. These pointless phrases, but at least it’s actually some ambition. And you go, Right. So If you want to do that, where are you leading the market? Because all I can see at the minute is you’re just following the market. They released a product A, so you released it. They released feature B, so you released it. You just did it six months later in a half-an-a-hour’s wait. So all you’re really doing is becoming a second-rate version.
[00:24:45.980] – Andi J
You’re just a pound shop version of your competitors. Is that what you aspire to? No. Why don’t we lead on it? Why don’t we lead on something? Why can we move the battle onto our terms? And they’re like, Oh, yeah. But it’s so easy to get drawn into that We’ve got competitive focus and be just like, They’re doing that shiny thing. We should do it. Do you get that pressure within the organisation, or are you fighting against that?
[00:25:11.730] – Rachel O
Yeah. Do you know what? I feel like it’s hard sometimes. I think we’re in a bit of a balance where we look at what some of our competitors are doing. But at the end of the day, they have a tonne more budget than we do. They have all the investment and stuff like that. I think to ourselves that what makes us stand out differently is that we offer So we offer face-to-face as well as remote interviews. Now, that’s something our competitors are not doing. So that’s what makes us stand up different. And I think we’re going to lead on that because at the end of the day, we’re not trying to be like our competitors. They dominate the space when it comes AI notes and AI this and everything, AI everything. And we’re not really that. That’s not the driving force for us. We’re trying to figure out, Okay, we want to make your lives easier as hiring managers by creating a more streamlined interview process. And a more like an At the end of the day, I think what our customers or our clients love about us is the fact that we are just authentic to ourselves.
[00:26:06.620] – Rachel O
We are not trying to be our competitor. We’re not trying to bring out things that our competitors are doing, even though it’s things where our competitors should be like, Oh, do we I’m not a investor, sorry. Our clients will be like, We maybe need this. I’ll look at it and I think to myself, I’ve seen one of our big investors do that. I think to myself, there’s a way we can incorporate certain things, but not exactly being copied. Just draw that in and make it into something We know we’re just not. I think we’re trying to understand what is important to our customers now. If there’s other things that we need to do in the future to adapt, then we’ll do it at our own pace. You never know. It could be one crucial feedback that a customer has given us, and that could be like that can change it all over. That could be something that we’ve thought about that our competitors may have missed the point on. That’s what could be us being the leader in that space. I think it’s important to not just fall into the pressure of this new AI thing or this new thing I think to myself, is it even with my marketing, I will look at the posts on my competitor on LinkedIn, I think to myself, Oh, that’s a cool idea.
[00:27:09.340] – Rachel O
But I wouldn’t be like, I need to do that. I’ll think to myself, How can I do that better? How can I actually get something, use that for inspiration. That’s why I always say, Use it for inspiration, not copy it. And then I’ll just create a version of that. It’s completely different, but it’s like, Okay, I know what… That’s giving them an idea for something I can create that’s even better.
[00:27:27.500] – Andi J
So you run in marketing for a a tech company, and you also involved… Well, you’re not. One of the founders of a fashion company, which is B2B for one, B2C for the other. Very different products, very different price points, very different business models, recurring revenue, all that stuff. What things are the same when you’re wearing the Ivy Haven hat as well as Equitas? What bits are consistently the same and what’s really different?
[00:27:56.260] – Rachel O
Okay, so I would say things are the same. I think it’s the level of consistency with posting. I always try and make sure… I found that on Ivy Haven, Instagram and TikTok are brilliant channels for Ivy Haven. I’ll post a photo of someone wearing a beanie, boom, an order just came through. I’m just like, Well, that was great. But with Equitas, LinkedIn would be our predominant social media channel. It won’t work for TikTok or Instagram because our audience or our key target market is just not on there. It’ll be very difficult to communicate to people who just aren’t looking for your interview software. Once I learned the software, the social media platforms that work best, I utilise that. In terms of the same, it’s being able to post consistently. People have mentioned in feedback that, Oh, your LinkedIn looks really good. You’re posting consistently. I can see that I’m always trying to keep it active. I’m always trying to make sure that that exercise as a voice, mixing up between thought leadership, bit of videos, bit of infographics, bit of just team posts, those things, which is funny because anything I put related to the team always get the most likes and stuff.
[00:29:13.290] – Rachel O
Even if I spend hours, nearly a week.
[00:29:16.300] – Andi J
Even in the tech world, people still love people, right? They like to see the faces behind it. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:29:22.340] – Rachel O
Exactly. And that’s the thing. That’s when I’ve noticed, I was like, Okay, we need to do more team things, we need to do more events. And that’s where I pushed content out towards as well. Whereas obviously in Ivy Haven, it’s really just a product for people. People love the product, but they also want to, as you mentioned, people love people. They want to hear the story behind it. So obviously, I have to switch between obviously putting out the content, putting out the people that support in. Ivy Haven, we have a lot of… We went for a phrase of where we had a lot of brand ambassadors because they really just love the brand and they just want to support. Having that community of people, just being out there, reffing Ivy Haven. I remember one time I walked down the street and I someone wearing a beanie and I was like, Oh, it just brought me so much joy. What I’m trying to say is that in regards to marketing for B2B and B2C, I think B2B would be more about building that community and for them that being able to educate them and nurturing that audience in the sense of giving them content that’s going to help them in their job for free.
[00:30:25.240] – Rachel O
I’m okay. I don’t always have to gatekeep the content. I feel like everyone deserves to have something that can help them. And then also being able to invite them into what we’re doing here in. Things that those weekly updates, the events that we go to, things that the founder has done. We always try and make sure we’re not just putting everything out on the company page. We’re also trying to make sure I have my own network that I try to push out for Eplitas. And then obviously, Michael, the founder, puts out his own. So we’re all trying to build a little community around Eplitas and getting ourselves out there that way. Ibehaving really is just being able pushing out new products, pushing out things that we know our audience will love, and then also be able to show the people behind it and ourselves as the founders, myself and my sister, as like, here, this is our why, this is why we do iBehaving. This is our story. So yeah, I hope that answered this question.
[00:31:16.660] – Andi J
It did. No, absolutely. And with iBehaven, you’ve obviously got, once you’ve got a beanie, do you need another one? Yeah, you might need one as a gift. So is this constant push to keep bringing up new products, as well as trying to recruit new customers to buy their first Iverhaven product. You’ve also got to try and get brand fans to buy a second and a third and a fourth as a startup brand, as well as buying products expensive. It ties up cash flow until it sells. Are you learning more lessons in iBehaving than you are at Equitas? It’s all right to Rachel’s boss at Equitas. It’s good either way, but I’m just interested in that.
[00:31:56.940] – Rachel O
It’s interesting now because with iBehaven, it’s very different in terms of we have a range of different products. So it’s like people maybe just be landing on our website or our Instagram page for the first time and they think, Oh, I’ve actually been looking for a beanie in this colour or this style, or that they’re going on holiday and they realise, Oh, I need a bucket hat. Maybe a friend has recommended or I behave and we have a range of different bucket hats or headbands. It’s because we have such a range, it’s like we have the seasons where people want to just buy like, beanies for obviously the season because we can never have too many beanies. We also really do a big push on when it comes to Christmas, like little gifts, because at the end of the day, we are such a small business. And I think what I’ve started to realise is that people still want to support small businesses and small startups and stuff. And knowing that it is a family business and knowing that some of our friends will be like, well, it’s admirable that you actually are doing this alongside, obviously, my job as well.
[00:33:00.510] – Rachel O
Being able to push that out as like, It’s authentic. You can give it out for gifts. There’s a range of different products. Even people, I think there was a time where we asked our customers who had bought from us, What do you want to see next? And a few of them mentioned handbags, and we ran with that. We were like, Cool, we’ll bring our handbags there. That was another… It’s understanding what their needs are and what they want to see. It was quite a fun experience. We just like to check in and see, I know you bought a beanie last time. Here’s our new collection. They’ll be like, Oh, I’ve been looking for a beanie in that colour. I didn’t realise you do handbags now. That’s great. I want to buy one for my mum or I want to buy one for my sister. It’s interesting that. Then with regards to, obviously, Aquitas, it’s such a long, long, long sales process. I think the only thing that I can do as a marketer is continuously put out there that… Obviously, for people who, one, are maybe searching for interview software or may not know what they are necessarily searching for.
[00:33:59.910] – Rachel O
I always try and balance between the benefit of using that with us, but also being able to educate them on things like maybe training aspects, because some people may want to just use this for training, and then that’s when we can bring in software. I don’t want to be too heavy on You need this, you need that, you need that. I think it’s important to have that balance that, Okay, obviously, we are a team and it’s for the software, so it’s like, We can help you. It’s not just, Here’s a software, go play with it. We can help you understand how to use the software better. We can help you with training, training your hiring manager to deliver interviews. Some of them are not doing this every day. It could be their first time doing an interview, and we want to help build their confidence as hiring managers that listen. We can help you. We’re here to help. We’re not going to desert you once you bought out. We used to sign a contract and like, Okay, thanks for the money, guys. No, we’re here to help. Exactly.
[00:34:53.790] – Andi J
I mean, there’s a lot of software products trying to do that at the minute, so it’s good to hear you or not. But just flipping back to I’ve been driving to the drive haven for a minute. You said your mum was a model, or is a model. Did that make the photoshoot of the products much easier? You’re like, Mum, are you busy today? Why? Just pop this on and stand there and smile. Did you just lean into friends and family to get started. Is that how you did it and then build from there?
[00:35:19.610] – Rachel O
I think, you know what, at first, I was like, Oh, no, mum does not model for her. She’s like, I will support my father at the camera. I love my mum, but she does not want to be on IVA’s invoicing. But we did try. But I think at first, I think we had to put ourselves out there. I remember for lockdown, obviously, we couldn’t meet up with people. So we literally had to… It was very more product-focused. And we would send some of our friends like, Oh, here, could you test out this beanie? Then they were like, Oh, we love this. They would actually try it on and take photos for us. Then that would help with what they call it user-generated content. So having enough people that would… Exactly. There you go. I love it. That was literally part of during our lockdown present. That was really what was driving our business forward. Obviously, we had to get behind the camera. Do you know what’s so funny? Because I used to be a photographer and a videographer in my past life. But I was so used to being behind the camera. When I had to put myself in front of it, I was like, Oh, my God, this is a complete different experience.
[00:36:22.690] – Rachel O
But I had to do it because I just wanted to show that I’m in support… Obviously, it’s our business, so we have to support it. Me and my sister, we had to put ourselves out there and we had to to just show that we stand for this product. And I’m like, This is why it’s important to us. And then people saw that and realised, Okay, we want to support and we want to show up that. We want to continue supporting IP even.
[00:36:42.980] – Andi J
Excellent. Now, you It sounds like you’re busy anyway. You’ve got a full-time job, Equitas, small startup, and startup life is tough, right? It’s a grind sometimes. You’ve got your own brand working with your sister, and working with family has challenges sometimes. I’ve got three brothers. I know all about challenges. It’s fine. But that’s not all you do. You’re also involved. You mentioned earlier about an event that happened recently that you’re behind. What was the event? How did it come about? Tell us that story.
[00:37:11.840] – Rachel O
Not many people know this, but I actually Early in the year, January, people were doing New Year’s resolutions, but I was like, You know what? I’m going to set one big goal. And I said to myself that I want to create an event here in Belfast like no other. So diversity, equity, and inclusion is something that I’m really passionate It’s something that I believe in, obviously coming from a Nigerian background as well. I was from London, then I came to North Ireland and Belfast. Belfast was very different 15 years ago to what it is now. You know what I’m talking about. I started to realise that the importance in terms of communities and certain workplaces, that emphasis on not only just trying to to create a diverse team, but being able to bring those diverse voices onto the table, being able to make sure every voice is heard, is valued, they’re included. Because at the end of the day, when people get a job, they don’t just want it. Some people may do it for paycheck, but I think it’s also important that they feel valued in a company. I think that was my driving force.
[00:38:24.630] – Rachel O
I thought to myself, I want to create an event where I can share stories that’s never been told before. It was called DEI In-N-I Untold Stories. I thought, get a diverse range of speakers, first and foremost, because I’ve been to DEI events before. Maybe it’s a couple of people that I’ve seen before and it’s very competitive. I thought to myself, no, I’m going to do something different, something that people haven’t thought about, and I’m going to bring eight different diverse speakers into a room. Well, 10 of them, but into a room and to share their stories and insights. And you know what? And I think after the buzz in the room after, it was incredible. Panel one was just driving their personal stories and being able to share what was important to them, what they’ve gone through in the past, based on things like, obviously, the George Floyd scenario as well, being able to talk authentically about what’s important to them and their own personal stories. And then panel two was to align with that and say, Okay, what can we do as leaders to create impact and create change? Holding ourselves accountable that DEI is just a…
[00:39:34.740] – Rachel O
It is a continuous journey. We’re never going to be done with it. We’re always going to keep doing things to drive things forward. But we can’t get to that point if we don’t have conversations. We have to talk to our people. What can we do as leaders to help them thrive in our organisation? You don’t want people coming in and leaving because they don’t feel included. They don’t feel valued. So it’s really just understanding how can we drive DEI forward and making sure it’s top of mind. I think I really accomplished that. It’s hard to believe it was last week’s Thursday. I can’t believe it. The buzz has been unreal.
[00:40:06.750] – Andi J
No, I wasn’t there. But the feeling that you talk about at the end of it in the room, and it’s a lifted room where people have been sharing stories and connected experiences in a place that Belfast is changing and it’s changing quickly. And I think that’s a really positive thing. It’s still maybe you said you lived in London before. It’s still got a long way before it becomes London or even catches up with an averagely diverse English city, but it’s moving in the right direction. It’s moving fast. So sometimes being able to share that experience is really important. And the feeling that comes after that, if you could bottle it and sell it, you would be a millionaire instantly. It’s just such an incredible feeling. You must have been on a high all weekend after that.
[00:40:52.360] – Rachel O
Honestly, I couldn’t stop it. I was literally just reading so much like positive feedback. Everyone’s posting on LinkedIn, and I was just there like, I just needed a few days to sit back and reflect. It was such a massive… For me, it’s a massive, massive achievement for my career, honestly. Michael, the founder, when I mentioned to him, I was like, I want to create a DI event here in Belfast. He was like, Go for it. I did not realise I will be taking on a full-time job on top of marketing for a full month. It was a lot of work, honestly. I did that all on my own.
[00:41:24.420] – Andi J
I can’t believe it. You can’t give enough praise to event organisers. I speak at a lot of events, I host events, events, do all sorts of stuff. But I do not organise many events because it is hard work.
[00:41:36.120] – Rachel O
It’s hard work. Honestly, I don’t know how people do it. I was like, wow. It’s a little things that people don’t even realise. You go to an event, you think, okay, they did catering, all that stuff. But there’s so much There’s a lot of things that go into it that makes it what it is. I sat back and I was like, Okay, nothing went wrong. It all went okay. Everyone was happy. I was just like, wow. After looking back, I was like, I did that. I accomplished that. I set myself a goal to do it, and I did it, and I’m so proud.
[00:42:01.410] – Andi J
And celebrate that win as well. That’s where we start. You got to celebrate that win.
[00:42:04.780] – Rachel O
There you go. I did.
[00:42:06.890] – Andi J
I think one of the things with celebrating wins as well is you have to take the time to appreciate it. You have to allow it to… Wallowing is used as a negative word a lot of the time, like the wallowing in self-pity. But I think you can wallow in a success as well. Maybe there’s a better word. I don’t know. But you should all have yourself a time to bathe in that success and be like, Oh, yeah, that was great. Inevitably, idiots like me immediately try and pull you out of that and ask you the question, So what are you doing next? But I’m only doing that because I’m a podcast host and I really need to know what you’re doing next. But you don’t have to be planning it right now and not having that ready is perfect. Wallowing the success. But what is next?
[00:42:47.540] – Rachel O
What is next? Oh, gosh. Do you know what? I thought to myself that after that big event, I thought, Let’s bask in this for a little bit and then figure out what’s the next thing. But we do actually have a few couple webinars, Equisition Planning. Again, we’re bringing out our Inclusive Interview Training webinar, which is… We did a series earlier in the year where we just had different speakers come on. We got another one of our one coming up on the seventh of November, which is quite good. So yeah, everyone wants to learn more about Inclusive Interview, don’t read the sign up. And then also another fun one that I really love. We did our first one in September, and it was a fun webinar where we got different founders who had different tech products all into a little 30, 40 minute webinar where they had to pitch basically their products in five minutes. And even the founder who did one as well. And it was nice to be able to hear from different founders where they are at their product. Because some of them we haven’t caught up with for a while. See the new features that they’ve brought out, see what they’re working on, what’s important, and being able to just refresh our minds on their products and where they are now on their journey, which was quite nice.
[00:44:00.620] – Rachel O
I think a lot of people we got a lot of positive feedback for that. We wanted to do another one, maybe sometime early December, I think. Just get founders on again and share their product, pitch their product, really.
[00:44:13.130] – Andi J
Have you got plans to take DEI in NI to another event, or are you still trying to work out what to do with that vehicle next?
[00:44:21.100] – Rachel O
Everyone’s ready for the next event. I’m thinking, yeah, definitely a 2025 goal. I wanted to… It’s an early idea. Obviously, I’m going to do another DEI and NI event on told stories, but that’s going to be this time next year. But what I want to do before that, maybe I would say maybe Q2 maybe, is to have a DEI workshop where it’s checking in. From that event, I’m drafting a key takeaways guide. People who missed it or people who, obviously, when you go to an event, you don’t take notes and you’re just like, Oh, my God, all that content. So I want to do an event recap and be able to send that to the attendee. But then from that, because I’ve given them, I’m basically giving them homework, but this is, you’ve got the insights. I’m doing more work. I said put on an event wasn’t enough. I’ve given myself more work to do. I’ve given it to them. I’m going to send that across to the attendees. Then it’s them to keep it top of mind and figure out, Okay, what can we do as an organisation? What can we actually incorporate from the stories and the insights and the strategy shared?
[00:45:23.970] – Rachel O
What can I actually put into the organisation? Then do a DEI workshop thing, maybe sometime next year, just to check in and see, Okay, what did you guys do? Where have you identified a gap in what you need? How can we help? Say for example, Michael, who’s very good at inclusive to your training, he can do a little roundtable workshop on inclusive to your training. Or it could be someone who has experience in incorporating inclusive workspaces for your team. So that could be one on leadership, one on neurodiverse candidates. Just have I think it’s like little bubbles of where people would want to improve their skills on. So it’s like, I don’t want to say speed dating, but it’s like a longer session of that where they can go from one table to the next and pick up different training. So yeah, something along those lines.
[00:46:14.730] – Andi J
You can call it speed dating, that’s fine. It’s just not enough.
[00:46:18.440] – Rachel O
Like, not enough time. I want to be a longer version of speed dating.
[00:46:22.980] – Andi J
That’s okay. A good call. So my final question then. I love the the energy, the passion, the drive you’ve got, which is fantastic. I’m interested in what you read, what you listen to, where you pick up ideas from, and what would you share? What would you recommend that other people should read or listen to or watch that will help inspire them?
[00:46:44.990] – Rachel O
I think that it’s important that, whether in our career or personalised, that we should always practise self-care and being able to take care of your mental health and being able to just take a step back. We can’t always be 100% all the time, and That’s okay. I think we need to recognise the importance of keeping ourselves right first. I read this book on, I think it’s called The Book of Light by Neila Light. She’s very interested. She comes from a background of, I think, it’s fashion/ hair/self-care-related. She talks about that journey of loving yourself and being able to appreciate in your floors and knowing that nobody’s perfect and being able to take away all that pressure of what the world or work is given to you and being able to be at peace with yourself first before given. Make sure your cup is filled before giving to someone. It’s so important. We need to remove our cups. I always use that as a little reminder to reflect back, Am I actually taking care of myself? Have I done the things that I enjoy? Even though, as you know, I’m I’m super busy all the time.
[00:48:01.190] – Rachel O
I need to take a minute to just be like, I need my time. I need to give myself space to relax and recover and reset and do the things that I enjoy out of the context of work and my business. That’s a really good one just to update and remind people about self-care. It’s important. Another thing that I would recommend is Black Create Connect, which is really a platform for Black employers, Black creatives, anyone that’s in that space to connect with other people. So they do a podcast, they do different events. I think we’ve even sponsored one of their events before at Equitas. And there’s just a range of different things to build that community. Because I think obviously when, obviously, 2020, when it was locked down, I think a lot of people felt very isolated. And the importance of community is so, so, so up there. And I think that we tend to… It’s so undervalued. And I think we need to understand the importance of building that community and nurturing that community. I think they do that very well in terms of trying to also help people, black candidates, try and get jobs, make them more visible on LinkedIn and stuff because it is hard.
[00:49:17.230] – Rachel O
It’s tough trying to get a job and then being able to… We have the certain barriers that you may face in the recruitment process. So they’re trying to reduce that as well and help make and create more visibility for them. And then, of course, that links into Black Recruitors Network as well, which is quite good, which is interesting to not only just build a community, but create more inclusive spaces for us, Black individuals, to shine.
[00:49:44.680] – Andi J
Fantastic. So if you like the sound of any of them, there’s links in the show notes where you can click, go straight through to look at the book or look at the network. So have a look at those if that is your thing. Rachel, thank you very much for your time. It’s been amazing having you on the strategy sessions.
[00:50:00.520] – Rachel O
Thank you so much, Andy, for inviting me. I really enjoyed this conversation. It was great.